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We're meeting at 8pm this evening instead of 7pm![edit]

  • Call for ideas/agenda items
  • ALPR project update (automatic licence plate recognition)
  • Best process for resolving the Shaw port 25 blockage
  • Best process for getting proportional representation implemented (failed in BC twice, and the UK last week)
  • Meeting dates, times and location
  • Kris' chalk board
  • Creative ways to develop more interactive independent media in Victoria
  • Gardening


  • Around the table: Kris, Nicole, Carol-Lynne, Rob, Eric, Wendy, Heather, Jay, Bruce, Brendon, Brian, Rob, Nancy, Kevin, Kurt and others
  • History of ideas meetings
    • 4 years ago at Canoe club
    • Part of recent article in Focus magazine


    • Police have automatic license plate recognition software piloting in Victoria. We'd like to show a test case (proof-of-concept) of how that system operates and the privacy and societal implications of that kind of system and the information it collects
    • Rob has questions that we'd like to ask to gather information about the system as it exists and how it will be used.
    • Robbins parking has a very secure parking for a stealth vehicle -- could they be have a surveillance vehicle? Could they have a private ALPR system? If they are gathering information that that ties vehicle information to GPS location and pictures of drivers which may violate privacy legislation
    • Illegal to take pictures in Canada -- licence plate, identifiable individual, location -- and there's the right of publicity, and laws against the collection of information.
    • Privacy Legislation in Canada
    • sample ALPR discussion from Kevin
    • We'll provide a list of the questions that we've come up with and put them in the minutes for review
    • Investigation of ALPR starts with phone calls to privacy commissioners and then Freedom of Information requests

Shaw Port 25[edit]

    • Kris blogged his concerns yesterday about Shaw breaking the internet
    • Shaw blocks port 25 for everybody except themselves, both inbound and outbound
    • Port 25 is used for email
    • Why do we allow Shaw the exclusive ability to log and store our emails?
    • Kris feels that he is being punished/taxed for being a technical person who knows how to set up and use email
    • What strategy can we use to convince Shaw and others to open up port 25
    • Two agencies in Canada who are responsible for making Canadian internet open, competitive and secure: the CRTC and CIRA Canadian Internet Registration Authority, but neither one seems to be doing their job in this regard
    • Kris is putting together a CRTC complaint
    • CRTC has made it much harder for citizens to make complaints
    • Might be better to wrap it up into a bigger complaint
    • May help if it's refined enough to put into an infographic--Rob and Kris and Carol-Lynne can dialogue over email to formulate the issue into a way that can be presented in an infographic
    • Perhaps put together 5 net neutrality pre-issues
    • For example, email traverses through the US because Canadian internet providers do not want to peer with each other
    • Oligarchy of ISP's has dark fibre running along railway right-of-ways, but we can't use it because the ISP's don't want it to be used
    • Get Chris Parsons involved when he's back in town
    • NDP picked up the digital vote Vote Net, which acts as a voting lobby, the Conservatives will need to respond to that in order to maintain their power
    • Review again when Chris comes back...

Proportional representation[edit]

    • Fair vote Canada wants to move from first-past-the-post system to proportional representation, which is fairly common in democracies around the world
    • First-past-the-post system distorts election results
    • Wendy was part of the first Citizen's Assembly about the voting system
    • Proportional representation is very hard to understand; if voters don't understand they vote no to change
    • 3 major families of voting systems that are proportional
      • Proportional Representation List (PR List) - when you vote, you vote for a party - used in a lot of countries in Europe
      • Mixed systems - one is Mixed Member Proportional - combination of electing an MP and electing a party list - so each person has two votes - would require re-districting to drop the number of ridings
      • Single Transferable Vote (STV) - divide the ridings into groups and votes are ranked. STV was a bad choice of words
    • Minority governments would increase co-operation and stability because a 2% in the change in popular vote would not mean the difference between a minority and a majority, it would just mean 2% more seats
    • Voting Counts: Electoral Reform for Canada - available for download at
    • UK was voting on Choice Vote, or Instant Runoff voting, votes are ranked. However, this does not produce proportional representation
    • Problem with proportional representation is that parties out of power do support it, but once they are in power or close to power they don't want it (because they prefer to have absolute power in a majority government)
    • For proportional representation to be implemented, you'd need to win the streets -- people need to be deeply unhappy with the current voting system
    • Kris will introduce Wendy to Steve Anderson of OpenMedia/Save Our Net
    • National Day of Action for Electoral Reform
    • People seem to have an inherent love of fascism, first past the post
    • People don't understand the difference between the Canadian and US electoral system, and how parliament really controls the government, not the other way around (the Prime Minister is beholden to parliament, not the other way around)
    • How do you get people concerned about corruption in elections? For example, the recent Central Saanich election in which the crown had the potential to lay 19 charges, but decided not to

Electronic Voting[edit]

    • Flaws covered in previous meetings: it's completely insecure
    • Every single electronic voting box in the world has been hacked
    • With electronic voting there is no way to prove tampering
    • Need link: vimeo electoral reform steve poole
    • BC Citizen's Assembly did not approve of online voting machines
    • Vancouver City Council: one councilor voted against it on security grounds, but the rest said "We don't care" -- and how do you counter that argument
    • Electronic voting may be a means of disenfranchising the poor and those who don't have access to technology
    • Peninsula Co-op election will be online using wireless -- wireless is quite easy to hack -- which is a opportunity for corruption
    • Vancouver city election is in November
    • Gillian Shaw, Vancouver Sun -- Kris can talk to her and see if she's interested in article re hacking
    • There's an entire industry around computer security
    • Vancouver City Council committee meeting minutes would likely have presentations by security professionals indicating how corruptable electronic voting is
    • Tag line: People have to be really stupid to approve electronic voting
    • See Kevin's blog on the subject
    • Greg Palast has some good articles on the issue of reform

Independent Media[edit]

Kris' chalk board[edit]

    • His condo has 4 foot racing stripe -- several coats of magnetic paint and several coats of chalk paint
    • Ideas for what to do with chalk board -- ideas challenge to have a section of the chalk board -- what would you do with that space
    • Fun sharing space, what could we do with it?
    • Or some presentation that incorporates the chalkboard


    • Kris has an area of his condo that gets very hot -- good for growing hops?
    • Place has high ceilings, so would vertical gardening work

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